So I have this friend...

[zhie]

How many conversations start out that way, eh?

So, I have this friend in the fandom. Doesn't matter what fandom. Could be any fandom. It's a decent sized fandom, lots of fans, lots of people writing fic, lots of people reading fic. People talking about their ideas, exchanging their ideas, writing and (as we called it back in the day in another fandom) riffing and plotting and drabbling and whatnot.

Anyhow, the story goes like this: Two people are chatting, and person number one talks about an idea they have that they want to write to person number two. Person number two likes the idea so much, they go and write the story on their own. They give credit to person number one, but they just go on and write the story. Person number one is not happy, and wants the story removed from the sites where it is. Person number two has no plans to remove said story.

This one is hard for me. While I really, really like person number one --- in fact, I don't even know the other person, had not ever heard of them before at all (shows you the size of the fandom, I guess) --- I differ in opinion. And that's sad for me, because I enjoy it when I have the same opinion as my friends, because then I can go 'yeah, go you, you tell that fuckwad how it is!' and feel like, yeah, I got their back on this.

But... this is where it gets hard, because I can't.

I'm very careful about things that I don't want people to run off with. My original fiction, as much as it kills me not to discuss, is kept so very hush-hush. There's maps - a language - lots of beautiful characters - a history - and, gah, the stuff I would LOVE to be able to post about and chat about and discuss! But... I guard it. I think my usual response is 'There's dragons in it.' Because, really, that's like, what, half the fantasy ever written. So I'm safe. I'm not going to freak next time I see a fantasy novel with a dragon on the cover.

If I saw a fantasy novel with... the image in my mind as I type this that I can't share... I'd freak, have a break down in whatever bookstore I was in, and probably be led out by security. But... although that seems pretty drastic... it's because it's mine. My idea. My characters. My world. My language. Mine, mine, mine, mine, mine.

Did I say it's mine? It's MINE.

But... if I see a story that has Haldir toting a stuffed animal... or Erestor being called Ress... or Galadriel raising goats... or Glorfindel eating cheesecake...

I am THRILLED beyond belief. You would not believe how absolutely tickled I was when Dark put cheesecake into Fin's mouth when I read her story. Actually, I think she read that part to me over the phone. I was grinning like a mofo. And was it TICS who put a goat into her story once -- Erestor petting a goat or something? My apologies if I'm remembering that incorrectly, I think that's who it was... anyhow, it was delightful. I reread it more than once. And Ress. Darling Ress, with all his imperfections, no matter who writes him, it just absolutely delights me, especially -- ESPECIALLY -- if I stumble into one unexpectedly (and I think even moreso if the writer just took it for fanonized canon at this point).

I've farmed out ideas, knowingly or not. I've had people jump into my sandbox. Some of them asked ahead of time; some of them just did it. Some of them credited me; some of them took a shovel as a souvenir and I've not seen them since. I prefer the former to the latter -- play with my sand, at least pimp me a little on your way to the next playground. But I find it difficult to say no in the long run, because all of the toys in this sandbox I stole from the one with the initials JRRT on the side.

This is hard to say, but... Erestor is not mine. Glorfindel, also, not mine. Crap. That WAS really hard to say. I might need a moment. *pauses* Okay, I'm back. Whew. Yeah, it's definitely difficult when you start to get this attached to a character. It's hard to see other people do things with them, or write things about them, or... y'know, there's this het group I frequent, and the things they do with Glorfindel... I totally have to skip those posts. Yeah. Shoot, I'm digressing, where were we... oh yeah.

Now we come to the part where there's the reply button coming up soon. Feel free to play in this sandbox, but I encourage you not to use names of the parties involved in case you know who they are. And as for the parties involved... to the one I know, I am sorry that I can't agree with you, because you're such an awesome person and as I said earlier it hurts not to be able to side with friends, I feel like the biggest asshole for it, but it's a matter of sticking with my principles and such. Know that I still love you and I hope things come to a conclusion that is favorable to you *HUGS* even if I don't agree with it. To the one I don't know, you don't sound like a very nice person from what people are saying about you, but I don't know you and I do at least give you kudos for crediting the idea to the person who came up with it, because that's more than I'm used to seeing overall in any fandom - but you might want to get the okay on things ahead of time before writing off of someone else's idea, because although it's a good way to write a story it's also a great way to lose friends.

Epilogue: I fully intend, once the original is published, to allow a fanfictional free-for-all. I just don't want anyone to touch/see/sniff/mess with/accidentally write a story so very similar to what I have ahead of time. So until then, know this... there's, um, dragons, and stuff...

Alright, I see the reply button approaching... feel free to discuss as soon as we land... please keep your hands and feet inside the post until we come to a full stop...

Comments

[aglarien1.livejournal.com]

While I feel bad for person #1, person #2 wrote their own story. Two people can write the same plot - hell, fandom is full of that. Each tell a story in their own way. Person #1 - while I sympathize - build a bridge and get over it. Never share your plots again, and btw - go ahead and write your own story, your way.

[zhie.livejournal.com]

You don't know how relieved I was to see I wasn't the only one thinking along these lines. Right before I posted I was thinking, I'm probably going to wake up tomorrow and find out that I am completely wrong per the opinions of other readers and writers.

And you're right about the next step for person #1 -- writing the story the way they envisioned it is an excellent idea.

[zhie.livejournal.com]

That's true. The first time I saw someone write a fic that looked very similar to something I had written about a month earlier I had a 'wait a minute...' moment. I think I had a snack, came back, and decided I was flattered that they liked the plot that much to run with it themselves -- and, it was interesting to see their take on it.

Yes, all Elves should have cheesecake... *wonders if there are lactose intolerant Elves*

[beruthiels-cats.livejournal.com]

While I feel the exchange of ideas is a good thing when people are at a sticky place in a story (nothing wrong with brainstorming, its a pactice I truly enjoy) this is a situation involving outright theft of an plot. Person #2, as has been brought to my attention over the last couple of days, makes a practice of doing such; something 'lesser' authors who have been victims of his have felt helpless to do anything about because of #2's popularity on a certain site. One author did confront #2, and was grudgingly given credit in his story, others have not been so fortunate.
The response when #2 is confronted with anything he has done is essentially the same..."get over it." It seems to be a patent response, since it has been used to such an extent. I have to wonder if this person truly believes the old cliche applies, here: 'It is a lot easier to get forgiveness than permission'. Apparently not, anymore...not in his case.

[zhie.livejournal.com]

Person #2 doesn't sound very ethical, obviously. Is what #2 did wrong? Well, it certainly wasn't very nice, but when it gets to legalities, it's fanfiction, it's very, very grey, and although rude to do so without permission, it doesn't seem it would be illegal.

And it seems this isn't the first time, from what I'm understanding. Perhaps what needs to happen is for people who have been burned to then let others know who they should watch out for if #2 is such a plotklepto. I recall, in days of old in another fandom -- okay, in the ThunderCats fandom (which obviously rules out ThunderCats as the fandom having issues) -- we would totally, totally announce practically at the top of our lungs when someone showed up and was being a douchebag. I KNEW who the people to avoid were. Granted, smaller fandom, but our warning system was, like, awesome, once we figured out who the real assholes were. And when I bumped into one in another fandom? Oh, I raised that red flag so fast it wasn't funny.

Message boards, blogs, and list servs. Okay, nobody calls them list servs anymore... yahoo groups and the like. But sometimes just passing the word along of 'hey, so and so is an asshole, avoid' helps to keep other from being burned.

[rpggurleli.livejournal.com]

Although what person #2 did was unethical, in my opinion, legally he/she didn't do anything law breaking. You can't copyright an idea. I don't think that you can even trademark it.

If I shared an idea with someone and discovered that they had written my plot, I'd read it, laugh, then write it better.

I keep my original fictions very secretive and only let people I trust read them or hear about them. I'm rather open about fan fiction though, since they are not my characters to begin with.

[zhie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, what #2 did definitely sucks, and makes them look like an ass for doing so. I agree that the next step for #1 is to show up #2 and let all know the idea was #1s first.

And yeah, the 'original fiction inner circle' is very small for me. But then, I had an original play stolen once, the entire thing, and then it was performed and all credit given to the person who stole it. Granted, it wasn't one of my best works, but that stays with you.

[rpggurleli.livejournal.com]

Technically, as soon as you save your work in a fixed form (written on paper, saved in a word doc, etc) you own the copyright. If you could prove you wrote it first, you could sue. I've done a lot of research into copyright law b/c of my writing comunity website.

[zhie.livejournal.com]

I still have the original files. This was in high school when this happened, and the play was used for a charity event -- so for that reason, I didn't want to create waves. If I'd have told everyone 'hey, don't go see the play, she didn't write it', it would only have hurt the charity. And, there was a message in it that I thought was important to get out there. So, if ever it popped up again and there was a dispute, all she had was paper copies -- I have the files, and, I probably have my original notes somewhere, too. I doubt it will though -- it wasn't very good! But thanks for the tips, I tend to forget some of that with all the fanfictional stuff I play in these days.

[rpggurleli.livejournal.com]

Yeah, sometimes in copyright disputes, you have to stop and think if you want to go through all the crap it will take to prove it was yours in the first place. Sometimes, it best to just let it go and learn a lesson from it, unfortunatly.

[blueslashicons.livejournal.com]

That's a big bite in the ass. I've learned that lesson very well, so much so that, yes there are a lot of great fandom writers out there and terrific betas, too, I've learned to shut my mouth and have a care as to who I tell and who beta's my stories, even to submitting my fics at the last minute.

Cheesecake, YUMMMYYYY! I've read of cheesecake in other fics, Dark Dreamer's 'The Fire Dance' has quite the cheesecake fest going on. I didn't know that cheesecake eating elves originated with you. :) You go girl!

and finally dragons....

I am in love with dragons and dragonriders! (yes, one word not two) I write "Dragonriders' of Pern" OC and I co-write fics often. Great fandom that, and a great AU created by the Dragon Lady, Anne McCaffrey.

I've only read one instance of a dragon in a "good light" in JRRT's fandom and it thrilled me to no end. It was in the Magic Rat's AU world, and the draggies name is Syrdanna. I love that entire world, and I love Glorfindel's and Syrdanna's bond and how her littles follow him around and she expects him to babysit her littles. :D I'm looking forward to your dragon take on your fics. :) And if you or anyone else know of G/E fics with "good" draggies, please tell me. *begs* heh. Not that "bad daggies" don't have their part, but yeah, I want to soar with dragons. Whee.

Anyway... um yeah... that was me hitting the reply button.

btw Zhie, every time I get a notification in email that you've updated your LJ, I pounce on it! I love your fics... and oh... thanks for bursting my bubble dot dot dot I foolishly thought that Fin and E Restor ... I mean Ress, were mine! LOL [q]“It’s not E-restor, it’s ER-estor,” corrected Erestor pointedly.[/q] *hugs* This fic makes me smile. :)

[zhie.livejournal.com]

Dragons! I have admittedly stayed away from all that is McCaffrey until I am done writing this, because I don't want to accidentally have anything inspire me in some way that would see too close to hers -- though, I have been told by people who have read her stuff and then know what's going on in mine that I'm not going down her path.

And I LOVE Syrdanna! See, that's a case where dragons in JRRT's world was done so well -- but then, I think just about everything Magic Rat writes is gold.

I admit to having an idea for a G/E story that would have a dragon in Valinor, but I don't know if I'll ever get to it.

*giggles* Maybe we call all claim joint custody of Er-estor and Glorfindel due to them kinda being orphaned now and call it a day? *hugs*

[blueslashicons.livejournal.com]

[q]I admit to having an idea for a G/E story that would have a dragon in Valinor, but I don't know if I'll ever get to it.

*giggles* Maybe we call all claim joint custody of Er-estor and Glorfindel due to them kinda being orphaned now and call it a day? *hugs*[/q]

All of us, as in the fandom, would love that! I so adore your writing, Zhie. And since I'm not going anywhere, who knows, I (we) might get lucky and be graced by that G/E draggie story. :)

I know what you mean about the Dragonriders since Eragon was/is thought to have come about from A. McCaffrey's idea/world. *hugs* And I'd definitely pay good $$ to read yours! :)

[eawen-penallion.livejournal.com]

Re the 'stolen plot' scenario, it is very annoying to be sure but I agree with you - fanfiction is such a grey area, we are 'stealing' from the original creator's ideas the whole time anyway. When I still wrote LOTR fiction, I know that I borrowed a few little plot ideas from other writers but I ensured that I contacted the writers in advance for permission (and they were only tiny, not essential to the story).

In another case (again with permission from dear Knightley) I took a plot revelation from one of her stories as the launching point for my unfinished fic 'A Denial of Souls'. I have the whole of that story in my head and I MUST finish it one day.

Finally, I just want to warn yourself and Blueslashicons that Annie McCaffrey is VERY unhappy at the thought of fanfiction in the world of her Pern series. Her son Todd has taken over the series and, knowing both Annie and Todd, she and Todd are very capable of action through their publishers. It is sad, because I adore her books and would love to read fanfics in this universe, but I thought I'd better alert you anyway in case you were planning to post any stories soon.

[zhie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I was aware of her being on that infamous list of 'writers who don't want their stuff to be fanficced', which was really what I had in mind when writing my Epilogue (perhaps that was part of why I decided to never read her works... I know I made that conscious decision with Anne Rice, so I've missed out on vampire goodness apparently, but it also means I'll never get up my hopes about ficcing any vampires, either).... when my original stuff gets out there for real, I plan to encourage fanficcing and fanart and all that fun stuff that goes with it... actually, Jake has specified he gets to be the first one to write a fanfic, but then it'll be a free-for-all in the world I've created.

Which, I just heard Nui return from the rest room, so I need to stop playing here and get back to said created world now... hee hee

[blueslashicons.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your concern, it is greatly appreciated. :)

I know of what you speak, but since then A. McCaffrey has relaxed her rules greatly. Here is the link for anyone who is interested in the changes.


http://annemccaffrey.net/index.php?page_id=20

[eawen-penallion.livejournal.com]

Oh, very interesting! Thanks for the link, I hadn't seen this latest revision. Anne has still kept tight control on her product with regard to ratings, I see. I used to write slash in different fandoms so I think I would exceed the PG that she implies though! ;-)

[zeedrippyvessel.livejournal.com]

Do I KNOW this person?

[zhie.livejournal.com]

You might. You might not.

Er-estor wants to know when you're making more fried chicken.

[zeedrippyvessel.livejournal.com]

I made friend chicken... oh... Thursday??? I fried up 14 chicken legs.

My dad ate four. In ONE sitting.

I can make friend chicken any time he likes. Tell him to let me know...

[suemichave.livejournal.com]

The same story can be told in many ways. I know I have drawn inspiration for many of my tales from others, sometimes unconsciously, other times when I recognise where the idea has originated I have asked can I continue a plot beyond the original. Sometimes something somebody says sparks my interest, times when listening to a song the lyrics suggest a plot. The whole thing really is, if you want it secret dont say anything, if you discuss it then be prepared for that idea to spark another idea. If credit was given then that is to be commended, but the idea is not copyright, otherwise we wouldnt be able to use the elves that dont belong to us either, ultimately as a teacher said, there are no original ideas, they all come from somewhere, we make them better or worse in our interpretation. I would suggest to person 1 'getting over it' and feeling a bit flattered that the idea was found to be so good it warranted more than one fic to be written, and indeed, write your own.

[zhie.livejournal.com]

That's a good point, about all ideas coming from somewhere else. Since the wheel was invented, how many original ideas have there been (and think of that poor guy -- I don't think he even got credit for the idea!)

And I'm kind of thinking of all of the challenges that get posted and the replies to them -- some of those challenges, there's thirty or forty replies (I remember one that galadhrim.net had way back when they existed, and there were so many stories to one prompt that I never read them all). It's very true that the same story can be told in many ways.

[lauand.livejournal.com]

I think it's an ugly thing to take another's idea and write a fic without having agreed before with the first person to do so. It's breaking the trust they put in you. But sometimes, the ideas of someone else inspire you to do beautiful things and to what extent must you refrain from writing down the story that has created itself in your head afer hearing that person's plotbunny? It's a delicate matter, because you're hurting someone's feelings, but only because of that, not for some copyright thing. I don't think the first person has the right to ask for the story to be taken down and forgotten, even if the spark that gave it life was his/hers. I would understand far better that they wrote their own version and explained why it's so similar to the other one. Without rantings or melodramatism, just so that people know it's not plagiarism. Although that could trigger a wank, and nobody wants that. I don't know.

What I wanted to say, is that it's morally wrong to take someone else's idea when they have told you in confidence and write a fic out of it, but only because it's a betrayal, not because I think it's wrong to take another's idea to build your own story. I don't know if I'm explaining myself correctly.

[zhie.livejournal.com]

It's definitely unethical, there's no doubt there. And that's where the whole 'is it right or wrong?' gets muddy, because there is wrong in legal terms and wrong in ethical terms.

I think one of the saddest parts of this is that #1 and #2 were, at some point, friends enough to share ideas, or at least for #1 to share them with #2. There's a friendship lost in this, and to me, a friendship is more important than a fanfic -- and I guess that would go for both parties. If the friendship is really more important, then #1 could accept that credit was given and just be really cautious with #2 from this point on, and if the friendship is more important to #2, they could just remove the story and go back to being friends.

But, I'm not sure at this point that the friendship is as important to either, or even possible again. And when there's nothing to lose anymore, that's when it gets nasty.

And I understand your points perfectly. *hugs*

[alexcat.livejournal.com]

I do believe this could be my fandom but I honestly have no idea who the two people are. Person number 2 was wrong but I still see no reason that Person number 1 can't write her own story. If you don't want someone to use your ideas or story plots, then do not share them until your story is written. I would be hard pressed to remove this story from a site as plagiarism, to be honest, though I have read that is what has been requested in several places.

But not knowing either person makes it easier to say that.

In fiction, there are about 6 plots and most every story, fanfic or original, is a variation of those. Like you, I tend to keep my original fiction plots and ideas to myself.

[zhie.livejournal.com]

*nods* I have thought of it from the standpoint of the list or site owner, too. Removing a fic can cause panic on the site or list -- even when there is a really solid reason for taking it down. In this case, are people going to start distrusting the site if the fic is taken down to the point of not wanting to post there or taking down stories they think might be taken down or...? Who knows.

But I think short of chunks to full stories copied word-for-word, or perhaps the obvious stealing of an original character (and I say obvious stealing, because, there are some characters where I see the name reused, but it's a different character --- for instance, there's other people with a character named Aranel, and it's not anything like the one I write about, and even if it was I suppose I wouldn't much care, but on the other hand Mary & Malinorne developed a character named Thaladir who I am just honored to have been given permission to use in my fics at times, but would be a little more difficult not to say 'hey, that's not right' if someone without permission started to write about him).

And when it comes down to it, you're very right about the plots -- names and places might change, but most of them fit a particular mold (or can be squished into one).

[still-dorothy.livejournal.com]

Person #1 should've never shared her idea. Person #2 should've NEVER taken the idea and run with it.

To me this is kinda a rule in fanfic land. Same goes for using someone's OC. JMO.

[zhie.livejournal.com]

Agreed on both accounts, especially regarding the ethical aspect of #2. And I think OCs are on a slightly more elevated level, in that OCs take a lot more time in developing than a basic plot does. In fanfic land, permission should be acquired first; but in cases where it's not, even though it's rude and unethical, I don't think there's much to be done except know for next time.

[kaffeine-kitty.livejournal.com]

Not sure how I stand on the issue so I will just say HOWDY FOLKS! I missed you all so much!

[zhie.livejournal.com]

Kitty!! *huggles* So glad to see you back again! Missed you, too!

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

You can't copyright your thoughts, sadly, but you can warn people when you know someone has a problem respecting the line between 'mine' and 'not-mine'. There comes a time for informally naming and shaming, and this would be it. Person #1 needs to get past this and go write the fic anyway, because the best revenge, to my mind, is doing it as planned and doing it waaaay better than person #2.

[book-maven.livejournal.com]

For me I guess it depends on the level of borrowing. Did #2 use the idea like a prompt and have it spark a similar idea? If so then credit would be nice but is not absolutely required.

On the other hand, if #1 outlined a detailed plot or a very unique and original idea (I'm thinking of some of the stuff yomiminamino's done with his novel for an example here) and said outline was used without permission, that would cross a line.

So without knowing the specifics, it's hard to say which side of the ethical line in this particular instance.